Curse

zwei2stein · May 26, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Simple: Release "serious" PvP part of game year (or more) in advance before releasing PvE part.

Reason: PvEr issue with nerfs is that:
a) They get attached to unbalanced crap that makes game easy and protect it as 'ballance'
b) They get attached to unbalanced crap that gets em virtual pixel goods and protect is as 'fun'
c) They get attached to unbalanced crap they did not know is unbalanced crap and protect it as 'being punished for being original'

Which is all eliminated if they never get to use that builds before and when their first hands-on encounter with skillset happens after all major rebalances happen.

Normal Betas/Alphas usually fail at detecting broken stuff which gets discovered quite fast in environment where people play to win and not to test. (Failure being discovering 100 exploits and not noticing number 101).

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Would separating PvP/PvE chronologically work better than separation at skill level?

MithranArkanere · May 26, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

You make it right by make PvP fixed and PvE variable.

You get a skill, it is way powerful, bring it to PvP, it gets limited.
You get a weapon, it deals a hell of a lot of damage, you bring it to PvP, it gets limited to PvP maxs.
You get armor, it has an insane armor rating, you bring it to PvP, it gets limited to PvP maximums.

And in the other way... you get a skill, it is crappy and you don't have enough attribute points to make it good, you bring it to PvP, it gets buffed.
You get a pointed stick that could not harm a baby hamster, you bring it to PvP, its properties gets maxed.
You get a piece of cloth that could not protect you from the bite of a mosquito, you bring it to PvP, its properties gets maxed.

Making available one side of the game after of before has nothing to do with that. Just change some numbers and rules while under PvP mode.

[DE] · May 26, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

No.

1. The game is constantly being balanced and re-balanced by Anet as the metagame is continuously evolving. It's inevitable that you'll need balance updates during the course of the game after the "PvE content" has been released. If you don't, PvP will stay stagnant and be stuck in a boring meta. Unfortunately, PvE'rs complain every time their is any sort of nerf. They think everything should be buffed, and don't understand how power creeps work or why the meanies at Anet decided to nerf their favorite skill.

2. Not all OP PvP builds are found in one meta. They change overtime as more skill combinations are discovered and more game balances are implemented. It would be impossible to eliminate all the builds and skills that the PvE community might whine about when they get nerfed.

3. Even assuming that PvP and PvE are completely seperate, their will still have to be nerfs in PvE based on PvE-only skills. You can't balance only half your game. Believe it or not, some PvE skills are overpowered (*cough*old ursan*cough*). These skills are vital to being nerfed to avoid promoting unskillful play. Will the PvE community cry when they get nerfed? Yes. Was it necessary to nerf them? Yes. Could the PvP community had found the OP'ness of the skill? No.

In the end, separating PvP/PvE chronically would do nothing but piss PvE'rs off because they have to wait a year to play the game they want to play. And to further that, when the PvE portion is released, their will still be nerfs that will occur, making the chronological seperation useless.

upier · May 26, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

I always thought that the best way to deal with overpowered crap was to do with it whatever the PvP guys want.
But after you do that - you look at how it affects PvE and adjust PvE accordingly. That way you keep the overpowered crap out of the game AND break the persistence of PvE. (I mean - why the hell is the ritu hench in factions STILL a bloody spirit spammer!??)

If they do not want people to bitch, they should do their job.

Longasc · May 26, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

This is basically a massive pre-release open pvp betatest.

Why not, they should consider this. There were GW sneak previews before release, too, and it did not hurt them.

The problem is that companies hardly put alpha-stage ideas out for public testing. So often beta tests are what people get in the end, more or less. More promotion for the game than bugtesting, actually.

They could also say, just release it and fix it while the game is live.

The issue is still that GW PvE and GW PvP often require totally different styles of play and skill setup. What works great and is balanced in the other part might cause trouble in the other.
I am also not sure if they want to further the PvP/PvE split, and how much emphasis they want to put on the pure pve skills.

There is also the chance that Guild Wars 2 is vastly different to GW1... and not just "Guild Wars 2.0", somewhat more bugfixed and balanced...!

MirkoTeran · May 26, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

How to balance without making people whine? You can't. People whine no matter what you do.

As for the suggestion; I don't think it would work at all. Group A would QQ as group B gets access to game before them.

I don't think there is (or even should be) such thing as balance. Game should be changing and evolving all the time.

And I still believe PvE/PvP split (and PvE only) is one of the worst moves they did.

Chicken Ftw · May 26, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

The only way to never have a single player whine is to never have a single player.

zwei2stein · May 26, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

How to balance without making people whine? You can't. People whine no matter what you do.

...

And I still believe PvE/PvP split (and PvE only) is one of the worst moves they did.

You can limit impact thou. One things is when devs realize that they created monster and decide to stomp it and look for new niche for given class (Rt Lord for example, Paragons ...). Such changes only happen early after release or once few metas have run their course.

Once big evil stuff was dealth with (radically, without having to cater for PvE.), there would be a lot less followups to anger people.

Later nerfs can then be just refreshers and minor shakedowns (from which PvE does benefit as much as pvp).

Skyy High · May 26, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Problem with this is that they will probably have to change skills after this year-long "grace period" anyway, so what's the point?

TheodenKing · May 26, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

The factors involved in balancing pvp is different from the factors involved in pve. Having a delay on skill availability for pve would only hurt the game.

Regarding "balance," I think it is important to decide how you wish to evaluate balance. To me, the clearest way to evaluate balance in pve is to look at the meta team build for a particular task, then look at whether other builds are still present for that activity, and whether any professions are being excluded from an activity, and whether one particular profession is necessary for a group activity.

Currently, it seems fairly difficult to find a PuG for UW unless you are a perma or you fill one of the very specific ancillary roles needed for the UWSC. If you aren't one of those people, you pretty much need a guild. Not a big deal to me, but it does indicate a problem with balance, when dependency on a perma affects how most people play the game.

They nerfed Ursan because of similar issues. It was getting harder and harder to find a group unless you were Ursan. The PvE game was getting dumbed down, and the variety of team builds was diminishing to the point of the game being boring.

I sense that ray of judgment will be a nerf target at some point for similar reasons. (Try to find a group in any challenging pve area that doesn't use roj or cryers for primary damage). Also note how dumb so many roj are in combat situations (similar to the masses that flocked to Ursan). Don't get me wrong... roj is great, and I also use it. But, like Ursan, a lot of people with very little skill are using it. And they are taking up spots on teams that used to be occupied by promise nukers, or splinter barragers, or spiteful spirit necros, etc. If and when roj is nerfed, I suspect it will be something as simple as the AI recognizing the aoe and then scattering, as opposed to trying to get a suntan (as they do currently).

So from a balance standpoint, a skill that takes over the meta to the exclusion of most/all others, is by it's nature, unbalancing in pve. shadow form is approaching that for tanking, ray of judgment is approaching that for damage.

Avarre · May 26, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Outright stop pretending that PvE means anything, allow pve-only superitems, and give us Diablo 2 in 3d.

Alternatively, realize PvE players play regardless of most changes, the money's already in the bank, and just do what's necessary without listening to the complaints. But ANet, tweak mechanics to create balanced and dynamic play?

Longasc · May 26, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

I am not sure if I want that from PvE or GW PvE to be specific. I do not want Guild Wars to be a Diablo clone.

The "there cannot be enough power" statement/lip confession was made in Blizzards Diablo 3 promotion.

PvE is important. It pays the bills, so no need to bash PvE to be meaningless.
PvP is not the game anymore, and never was, despite opposite claims. It never paid the bills.

It is about as important for ArenaNet as the NHL is in comparison to the IFFA, the International Fly Fishing Association.

FeroxC · May 26, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Outright stop pretending that PvE means anything

PVPs a relatively tiny and very vocal minority who seem to go round bitching, moaning and sticking their nose up at the PVE players(who they brand inferior) which make up the majority of the games player base.

Get rid of the "QQ" by dropping PVP.

KIDGOOCH · May 26, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

This issue will never be solved as long as people can play one game two different ways, in which each are unique and should be kept separate. PvP recognizes team work and build, versus PvE which recognizes the grinding, adventuring, following some set of organized mayhem er, umm, learning the game at a pace. PvP is relegated to a few boards where every decent player knows the landscape and eventually the benefits as well as the pitfalls of each "arena". PvE learns the shortcuts to pass through terrain to the next mission/quest/reward. If ANET truly wants to balance the game to everyones benefit, they need to make everything mutually exclusive to each form, make one version of a skill for PvE, then make a duplcate version for PvP but change the name of it. Just as we have multiple skills across the multiple expansions same exact cost and wording but different skill names to show which version of skill is being used. PvP can tweak to its heart content, while PvE won't have to cry and moan everytime something gets "nerfed, for the benefit of everyone".

Sarevok Thordin · May 26, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

PVPs a relatively tiny and very vocal minority who seem to go round bitching, moaning and sticking their nose up at the PVE players(who they brand inferior) which make up the majority of the games player base.

Get rid of the "QQ" by dropping PVP.

Dropping PvP would be the nail in the coffin, I think it's a bit more important than PvE personally.

Ate of DK · May 26, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

If Anet announced today that GW2 won't have PvP. Then it's allready dead.

Because GuildWars hasn't got that good PvE. It just has shiny graphics and stupid AI and repeating content. People want PvP.

Personally I think the number of PvE only players is small compared to those who participate in both PvE and PvP.

FeroxC · May 26, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Dropping PvP would be the nail in the coffin, I think it's a bit more important than PvE personally.

Imagine what it would be like if the entire PVE element of GW was disabled and then compare it to what would happen if PVP was disabled.

Which situation would leave the most players? If you think PVP only would have the most players remaining then IMO you're slightly deluded.

slowerpoke · May 26, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

gw is beyond proper balancing
too many skills, game modes and crap professions

that being said, i still think pve should have balance. balance between the professions is important. while it is pve there is still competition between players for a spot in groups. players using weaker professions are at a disadvantage. so try to make them all viable via balance.

Brett Kuntz · May 26, 2009, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I think: PvE and PvP will be separated in GW2, they will each have their own skills and balance plans in a way that they wont ever interfere with each other.

dpregan · May 26, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Someone will always have something to whine about. What is nerf for someone is bonus for someone else. Someone will whine about it.

Lets look at a non GW example. Where I live they wanted to build a wind farm to provide electricity. A load of people moaned about how it was an eyesore and ruined the landscape. Well now it looks like they are getting a nuclear reactor. I am sure there are going to be a few people whinging about that to.

No decision will ever be made without someone, somewhere whining about it.